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The SAM Site Overview Discussion Thread
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SOC
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:02 pm    Post subject: The SAM Site Overview Discussion Thread Reply with quote

This thread is for discussions relating to the content found in the GE SAM Site Overview file available for download on my blogsite here.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So far, former East German SAM sites and Russian S-25 and 5V11 sites are listed in the Historical Sites section. I'm debating on how extensive to make that part. I think what I'll do is add Russian S-75 and S-125 sites, and any Russian S-200 sites that are clearly devoid of activity. I'll leave the S-200s currently in low resolution to ensure that I recheck them for an imagery update to see if they were fitted with S-300P batteries.

What else should be moved into the Historical folder? I think that if a nation still uses a system, sites of that type need to remain because they remain viable as future redeployment locations. That means that empty Ukrainian S-125 sites would remain, for example, even though they don't use many of them anymore. What else should get tossed into the Historic folder then?
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ylr



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 1:36 pm    Post subject: Western SAM ? Reply with quote

The SAM Site Overview file contain some data on western SAM network, but they seldom show up as article. Is there a reason for this ?

The articles on DDR/Syria/Iran SAM networks are very interressing so what about some similar articles on how the UK/France/Italy planned air defense against Warsaw Pact raids during the Cold War ?
What kind of SAM network had Spain during the Cold War and where they deployed (south, north) ?
Where SAM part of the US defense in NORAD ?
Etc, etc.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 1:49 pm    Post subject: Airbases... Reply with quote

SAM network give only one side of the story in the air defense doctrine of a country. Airbases with fighters squadrons give another.

What about adding the airbases to the file ? This would allow a more global overview of the general air defense posture of the countries.
And it would provide some nice complement to the in-depth coverages that have been done on the DDR, Syria, Iran, etc.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Western SAM networks are being looked at for future articles. What I'm doing right now is looking at the WarPac networks, and then I'll turn to the NATO networks, with the final bit being a compare/contrast between the two network architectures.

As for airbases, I have a file available at the site with Russian bases/units current as of 2007. Anything beyond that may be a bit much and take too long to get things written in a timely manner. That's why the articles are specifically labeled as SAM Network Analysis pieces, to bring attention to the fact that they only deal with fixed defenses.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sean, I noticed that you also include SAM garrisons in the collection. I have no idea how you ID them, but I know the general location of a couple of SAM garrisons belonging to the Romanian Army, maybe you can pinpoint them

51st SAM Regiment based at Craiova with SA-6
53rd Mixed SAM Regiment "Tropaeum Traiani" based at Medgidia with SA-6 and SA-9 (CA-95)
I've checked the locations in GE and found what are obviously military bases to the south edge of both cities at
44.239229° 28.253272°
44.233329° 28.283000°
44.277373° 23.815834°
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SOC wrote:
What else should get tossed into the Historic folder then?

The Iraqi SAM network.
It's fairly obvious that it's dead, and if they ever get large SAMs again they will be of other types, most likely of US or European origin.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iraq isn't a bad idea, neither is Afghanistan for that matter. I'll look at your garrisons and see if I can make them out. I ID garrisons based on the presence of visible, identifiable SAM system components.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SOC wrote:
Western SAM networks are being looked at for future articles. What I'm doing right now is looking at the WarPac networks, and then I'll turn to the NATO networks, with the final bit being a compare/contrast between the two network architectures.

Ahhhh...very good news !

SOC wrote:

As for airbases, I have a file available at the site with Russian bases/units current as of 2007.

Yes, and there was that piece on the J-10 also (which actuallly prompted the question). Anyway, that's just to say the use of google earth maps is one of the great value of this sie, as it allow to put things in perspective. So the more, the better.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A good idea would be to create post with description of current Russian air defense systems location exactly as Chinese SAM network analysis from January 30th, 2008. It is especially interesting to observe its fall after USSR's collapse. As I can remember in 1991 only 10-15% of Soviet PVO forces belonged to S-300P type. Until now all older systems (SA-1/2/3/5) were withdrawn from service but in exchange not many new S-300P systems was introduced.

That is why I guess now Russian SAM network is full of holes.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Russian SAM network is being worked on, but I want to see more imagery around Moscow and St. Petersburg before I finish it.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SOC wrote:
The Russian SAM network is being worked on, but I want to see more imagery around Moscow and St. Petersburg before I finish it.


Great!

Anyway I suppose now Russia adopted Chinese SAM network model to some degree but on average with more modern SAM assets: defend few key population centers and more important strategic nuclear forces sites. There is no continuous, multilayered SAM belt along Russian borders at least in Europe like during Soviet times.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SOC, in the last update of the SAM file you listed the EW site here:
44.4821° 25.9553°
as empty. Well, it's not, apparently it houses a PRV-13 which should work in conjunction with the P-37 located half a mile to the nortwest (labelled as EW site in your file) to give a 3D radar picture.

In fact the two sites form together a large EW complex responsible for the Bucharest (capital city) area, with the current P-37 location looking more like a wartime dispersal of the main site/garrison, having also a couple of bunkers. There's also a comm tower further to the nortwest, and another 3-4 small facilities dispersed among agriculture fields.

Here's another EW site to be added in the next update:
47.678384° 24.422503°

And the PRV-13 mentioned above, encircled in red:
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good eye. I'll fix that and add the other one in the next update.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:42 am    Post subject: Bloodhound Reply with quote

Yesterday I've started researching a bit about the Bloodhound SAM, about which I knew next to nothing.
Seeing that the site locations are easy to find - some listed even in wikipedia, thought I'd take a look in GE,
to see if I can locate any. Turned out to be an easy prey Twisted Evil
Here's the result, plus a few EW sites:

Swiss Bloodhound SAM sites

46.771531° 6.957201°
47.281870° 7.647468°
47.289724° 8.277464°
47.095906° 8.290150°
47.158861° 8.582446°

Swiss EW site

46.425672° 6.099963°

part of the Austrian "Goldhaube" EW network

47.877385° 13.275411°
48.5771° 16.3956°
48.5784° 16.4102°

Singapore empty Bloodhound SAM site

1.411301° 103.889364°

Malaysia empty Bloodhound SAM site

5.457862° 100.396649°

UK Bloodhound SAM sites (empty)

52.362101° -0.103092°
52.785339° 0.747377°
53.504506° 0.069182°
53.805417° -0.903414°
52.965820° -0.564599°
52.132221° 0.972933° one missile displayed on ramp
51.998635° 1.417373°

Switzerland bought 68 launchers; 60 pads can be seen at the links above.
So, if they didn't built rerserve sites, there should be only one or two sites missing from the list.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Libyan EW site:
29.201688 16.008325

French EW sites:
45.848362 4.779077
45.840853 4.796826
43.770874 7.419596
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Portuguese and Spanish EW sites.

Portugal

ER1 Fóia Arrow 37°18'55.60"N 8°35'47.24"W
ER2 Paços de Ferreira Arrow 41°17'28.51"N 8°25'36.12"W
ER3 Montejunto Arrow 39°10'30.87"N 9° 3'3.66"W
All three equiped with Hughes HR-3000 radar.

From 2011/12:
ER4 Pico do Areeiro, Madeira Is. Arrow 32°44'5.69"N 16°55'41.45"W
With Indra Lanza 3D radar.

ER (Estação de Radar=Radar Station)


Spain

EVA1 Inoges (Lanza 3D) Arrow 41°22'26.76"N 1°29'42.25"W
EVA2 Villatobas (Lanza 3D) Arrow 39°53'10.95"N 3°18'1.15"W
EVA3 Constantina Arrow 37°55'24.65"N 5°35'19.46"W
EVA4 Rosas Arrow 42°16'47.46"N 3°14'39.86"E
EVA5 Alcoy Arrow 38°38'54.03"N 0°15'56.77"W
EVA7 Soller, Mallorca Is. (Lanza 3D) Arrow 39°48'39.27"N 2°47'36.70"E
*EVA9 Motril Arrow 36°44'33.60"N 3°24'50.29"W
EVA10 Noya Arrow 42°43'16.00"N 8°55'13.62"W
EVA11 Alcalá de los Gazules (Lanza 3D) Arrow 36°28'46.44"N 5°35'48.93"W
EVA12 Espinosa de los Monteros (RAT 31 SL/T) Arrow 43°10'45.54"N 3°38'58.03"W
EVA13 Totana (Lanza 3D) Arrow 37°51'44.88"N 1°34'21.78"W
#EVA14 Cerezo de Arriba Arrow 41°11'0.97"N 3°27'54.18"W
EVA21 Pico de las Nieves, Gran Canaria Is (Lanza 3D) Arrow 27°57'43.22"N 15°34'13.02"W
EVA22 Peña del Cache, Lanzarote Is (RAT 31 SL/T) Arrow 29° 7'17.12"N 13°31'13.41"W

* Most probable location, not confirmed yet
# Possible future location

EVA (Escuadrón de Vigilancia Aérea=Air Surveillance Squadron)


Some of the Spanish EW sites are not visible or just visible in low-res, and some are even censored.

Hope you find this of some interest.

Abraços

PS: Great job you've been doing, SOC. Absolutely amazing... and addictive!
Thanks a lot!
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good stuff, I'll be updating the SAM file sometime this week and I'll be sure to add those sites.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 3:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's the 6th (and final) Swiss Bloodhound site:

47.414041° 8.905369°

And this place in Crete:
35.577430° 24.173887°
identified as "Empty NIKE-HERCULES site" in the .kmz file is the NAMFI SAM training range. They even have their own site:
http://www.namfi.gr/main.html
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll change the Greek site's ID in the next update, good call.
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